Larry:

I don't know when Bishop N.T. Wright is going to heaven but I will be there the second I die.

Jesus turned to the thief on the cross and said, "Today, we will be in Paradise."

Bishop Wright's response to that in the article was that Jesus didn't go straight to HEaven. It was 3 days before he was resurrected.

 From the article "He explained: "There is Luke 23, where Jesus says to the good thief on the cross, 'Today you will be with me in paradise.' But in Luke, we know first of all that Christ himself will not be resurrected for three days, so 'paradise' cannot be a resurrection. It has to be an intermediate state. And chapters 4 and 5 of Revelation, where there is a vision of worship in heaven that people imagine describes our worship at the end of time. In fact it's describing the worship that's going on right now. If you read the book through, you see that at the end we don't have a description of heaven, but, as I said, of the new heavens and the new Earth joined together."

Again, I'm not trying to defend his position as I haven't read the book, but he brings up some interesting points in teh article.

You are a Bible College trained, a former church staff member.You led several ministries and taught classes. And you are what you would consider to be fairly Bible literate, yet you can't refute so called Bishop Wright's theory?

1) 2 CORINTHIANS v. 3.--We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

2) Philippians, chap. i. 22, 23: "But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labor. Yet what I shall choose, I wot not. For I am in a strait between two; having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ."

3) Acts 7:55, : "He, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man (i.e. Jesus, in his human nature) standing on the right hand of God. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, and cast him out of the city, and stoned him. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

4)And so it was that the soul of the penitent thief on the cross ascended. Christ said to him, "To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise." Paradise is the same with the third heaven; as appears by 2 Cor. 12:2, 3, 4. There that which is called the third heaven in the 2d verse, in the 4th verse is called paradise. The departed souls of the apostles and prophets are in heaven; as is manifest from Rev. 18:20, "Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets."

Eph. 3:14, 15, "Jesus Christ, of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named.

The word says in the mouth of two or three witnesses let everyt word be established, I gave you you seven verses of scripture, not taken out of context, that establishes God taking away His saints with Him in heaven.

If you need more scriptures, I will be glad to furnish it to you so that you may not doubt, but believe what the scriptures say about heaven, and where we go when we depart from this body.

I also beleive that it will be the second I die - however, I also believe that our reference to time is not the same as Christ's. I have been trying to grasp this more since my father died in August. I am believing that it all happens all at once -  we all will meet together during the second coming. Confusing yes.

I would have to agree with Bishop Wright. It is my understanding that when a person dies they're in, like he says, a state conscience sleep until Jesus returns. Once all prophecies have been fulfilled, and Jesus returns for the 144,00, then will those souls be resurrected. Everyone will stand on judgment day before entering the gates of heaven.

Nicolas - He's not saying we won't go to heaven right away, but in what state. His assertion is that we enter a state of conscious rest the second we die and that we are with Christ, but that we do not get our new bodies until Christ comes back.  Out of curiosity, did you read the article? Also, without reading the book, I don't know if he's referring to purgatory. He doesn't seem to be saying that all will go to a holding place prior to judgement, but that there is a difference between being in Heaven with God and getting a new physical body.

Jo - I would agree with you. My belief is still that we go to heaven immediately, but our time/space reference is not the same as God's. Also, I'm not sure that it really matters when we get our new body. The main thing is that we are with God for eternity. When and how He chooses to give us our new body is inconsequential. As for me, if I spend a season resting in the hand of God, I'm ok with that.

I think Jo made a good point, our reference of time here on earth (the lowest & slowest plane of existence) is far different than that of the spiritual realm. That state of conscience sleep the Bishop speaks of could be a matter of seconds compared to earth's days.

Larry: I read the post, and I know what consciousness means, you are present with Christ, do you know what that means? Present with Christ means your soul and spirit are with Christ, enjoying the fruits of your labor. Jesus teaches many things about heaven and our fellowship with Him there. Not in a sleep, but in the spiritual condition, which is more real than our flesh, blood  and bone body. Jesus demonstrated our existence and state when He resurrected and said to Thomas Put your fingers in my wounds and he did, and was a believer. Then he walked through walls. It is the amazing features of our God and the spirit he created.

He said Our God is Spirit, and they who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth!

Eugene - Good point. I once heard a message from a respected Pastor who had spoken with a Christian astrophysicist. He had indicated that they had discovered something like 62 different dimensions and felt that they had just scratched the surface. He then gave an analogy that God came to earth in a 3 dimensional form to show us how to live and relate to Him and others. Did we see the fullness of God through Christ on earth, or did we see as much of God as He felt necessary at the time?

Nicholas - I agree with you. Possible what Wright is referring to is a physical, non-spiritual body. As an Anglican, there is a strong likelihood that he does not have the same frame of reference that a spirit-filled Christian has.

I did not see this blog and posted pretty much the same type of blog with the Bishops article in Time Magazine.  I believe the Bible says ashes to ashes dust to dust.  You are dust and to dust you shall return until the second coming when he comes back to the earth.

When he comes back that is when every eye shall see him.

Endrea - thanks for your input. I also did not see your post.

Endea: You are getting your doctrines mixed up. Our spirits are eternal, they must either go to heaven, where God dwells, or hell, because of the righeousness of God, an unredeemed spirit cannot dwell in His presence.

Larry- I would have to say no, we don't or cannot see the fullness of God while here on earth. While Jesus was here on earth, performing all kinds of miracles, the people still didn't see or believe in him. Even Jesus said, while talking to his disciples, "I have many things to show you, but you can't bare them now, therefore, I must go."

Eugene - Exactly. Imagine what would happen if God opened our eyes to truly see all of His fullness, in every dimension. (If it were even possible). Dent. 29:29 speaks of the secrets that God has not revealed to us...

Our bodies go to dust or the worms whatever - those who place their faith in Christ and accept him as Lord as well as Savior go into his presence at death. Many call themselves Christians but think they are going to Heaven because of baptism or communion or denomination or their goodness. This isn't what God says tho and God says TODAY = no soul sleeping for me.

In my opinion this is the type of argument that divides christians for no good reason. God says I,m going to be with him after i die thats good enough for me. How he is going to accomplish that is beyond our realm of thought. Its faith, the foundation of everything. When we start getting into thinking that we can figure out exactly how God is going to accomplish anything we raise ourselves to a plateau we don't belong in.I,ve come to believe that my spirit will go to the Lord until the new heaven and the new earth at which time we will get new bodies. If I,m wrong is not relevant to me . The only thing that matters is that I will be with him in whatever state he chooses. God Bless You

The article refers to Jesus going to Paradise. - it was different then with Paradise on one side  then a great chasm and then Hell on the other side ( Lazarus the poor man and the rich man- Luke 16) Jesus takes the keys to Hell -  he had things to do in those 3 days , not sleeping. I also think at this point all those who had looked forward and put their faith in him got moved to Heaven.  When the Bible says we are to be like Him it doesn't mean that we are literally to be like him in every way, we won't be God  - not now and not ever.

It is late and I  will study this and come back to it. 

Maria Schriver is no expert on Heaven either, I see. 

Kathlees - Thanks for your input. I agree with you on Maria...

Hugh - I agree. We need to remember that God alone is God, and that we can often be presumptuous in our understanding of who He is and what He is doing. We see dimly...

Well, I tried to read the article and was not able to.  At any rate I do not believe I really need to read it.  The Bible clearly teaches that to be "absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5).  The Bible also clearly states that when Christ ascended he went to sit at the "right hand of the Father" (Hebrews 12:2).  If Christ is sitting at the right had of the Father and to be abscent from the body is to be present with the Lord then I would have to say, based on the truth and foundation of scripture, that Christians DO go to heaven when they die.  No where in scripture is there support for the notion that Christians simply sleep until Christ returns.  This is a lie of satan and all who truly believe on Jesus Christ for their salvation should reject it for what it is - heresy!

 

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Question: "Did Jesus go to hell between His death and resurrection?"

Answer: Did Jesus’ soul go to Hell during the time in between His death and resurrection? There is a great deal of confusion in regards to this question. This concept comes primarily from the Apostles' Creed, which states, “He descended into Hell.” There are also a few Scriptures which, depending on how they are translated, describe Jesus going to “Hell.” In studying this issue, it is important to first understand what the Bible teaches about the “realms” of the dead.

In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to described the realm of the dead is "Sheol." It simply means the "place of the dead" or the "place of departed souls/spirits." The New Testament Greek word that is used for hell is "Hades," which also refers to “the place of the dead.” Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicate that Sheol / Hades is a temporary place, where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection and judgment. Revelation 20:11-15 gives a clear distinction between the two. Hell (the lake of fire) is the permanent and final place of judgment for the lost. Hades is a temporary place. So, no, Jesus did not go to “Hell” because “Hell” is a future realm, only put into effect after the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

Sheol / Hades is a realm with two divisions (Matthew 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23; Acts 2:27-31), the abodes of the saved and the lost. The abode of the saved was called “Paradise” and “Abraham's bosom.” The abodes of the saved and the lost are separated by a "great gulf fixed" (Luke 16:26). When Jesus ascended to Heaven, He took the occupants of Paradise (believers) with Him (Ephesians 4:8-10). The lost side of Sheol / Hades has remained unchanged. All unbelieving dead go there awaiting their final judgment in the future. Did Jesus go to Sheol / Hades? Yes, according to Ephesians 4:8-10 and 1 Peter 3:18-20.

Some of the confusion has arisen from such passages as Psalm 16:10-11, "For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption....Thou wilt show me the path of life..." “Hell” is not a correct translation of this verse. A correct reading would be “the grave” or “Sheol.” Jesus said years later on the Cross to the thief beside Him, "Today, thou shalt be with Me in Paradise." His body was in the tomb; His soul/spirit went to the “Paradise” realm of Sheol / Hades. He then removed all the righteous dead from Paradise and took them with Him to Heaven. Unfortunately, in many translations of the Bible, translators are not consistent, or correct, in how they translate the Hebrew and Greek words for “Sheol,” “Hades,” and “Hell.”

 

The Bible was given for us to study and that is not presumptuous not do we have to be ignorant - some things we will not know, but why not dig to find the truth that is there for our understanding. This doesn't need to divide - it to learn - those who don't want to learn separate themselves out. 

So far this has not gotten out of hand...it is a "spirited" discussion.......

ALL I know is the ending of what happens is... the faithful are included in the inheritence....and the evil doers are included with Satan and his demons....

That is ALL I really care about......

My dad, mom, and ALL my grandparents are all gone...... I HOPE I see ALL of them when I pass over...who knows if I will.....

KNOWING I will see my Savior is fine enough for me......

(BTW...I agree with Kathys take on it all.... being that the Hebrew words are included with her explanation.... I have a Hebrew Bible...and everything she says is spot on...)

\O/

Don - Thanks for your input. There are references to being asleep however.

1 Thes 14-16 "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first."

But this is more ambiguous. If the dead are already with Christ in heaven, why is He coming back to get them? Just a thought.

 

Kathleen - Nice work. Thanks for the clarification. When I was speaking of being presumptuous or not knowing the secrets of God, I was not referring to walking around in ignorance. Just the opposite. As you state, we are to study the Word and seek it's truths. But we also need to be open to the fact that our understanding of the Truth might not be in the fullness of God's understanding of His truth. That is why we continue to study and have dialog.

Alexander - Thanks for your insight. I agree. The eternal conclusion to the matter is what is of most importance.